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antisemitism, communism 

There's a lot of anticapitalist sentiment on my feed- which I entirely understand. I draw the line at supporting communism because for many Jews, we know just how cruel the Soviets were towards their Jews.

There was Jew killing, but there was also a concerted effort to destroy Jewish identity specifically- the language, culture and religion.

They used propaganda to lure Jews in, and then oppressed them into nothingness. Some lucky ones escaped.

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antisemitism, communism 

When I hear people talking about the Soviet Union, it's almost always someone who didn't live in, or wasn't often alive during the time of the Soviet Union.

Moreover, the people advocating for Soviet style communism are rarely a persecuted minority.

Try to keep that in mind.

/end

antisemitism, communism 

@emacsen My wife's grandparents were both Jewish communists. Supporting communism isn't antisemitic. Supporting Stalinism is.

antisemitism, communism 

@freakazoid

There were communist Jews in Israel- the Kibbutz movement is very communist. I'm speaking specifically of Soviet style communism.

And the hate lasted well past Stalin. WW2 didn't end the hated towards Jews in the Soviet Union- it just ended the explicit murder, but not the oppression or cultural erasure.

antisemitism, communism 

@emacsen Yeah I block those people on sight.

re: antisemitism, communism 

@emacsen I recently took a trip that include the Czech Republic, Slovakia, and Hungary. I didn't hear a good word about Communism in any of those places.

re: antisemitism, communism 

@Ahuka

You generally won't, no.

You may hear some positivity by some upper class Moscovites, because they were largely the benefitiaries of the centralized model.

One misconception about capitalism is that some think ti's the only model that derives wealth on the backs of laborers.

Communism does as well.

Neither extreme solves the basic problems.

antisemitism, communism 

@emacsen I... don't have that at all.

The persecution was by the Russians. Russians were persecuting our forebears for centuries before Vladimir Ulyanov ever even heard of Marx. We were the communists, betrayed by the Russians.

We were (pace my parents and their parents) building a Communist paradise in the desert. We had communal food, communal parenting, communal possessions. That birthright was stolen by religious fanatics and those who compromise with them.

antisemitism, communism 

@dgold

I want to understand what you're saying but as I read it, I found myself filling in blanks and I think that may be a mistake.

Would you mind being more explicit?

antisemitism, communism 

@emacsen

I was raised on a kibbutz, outside Eilat, in the 1970s. I lived a life full of communist theory and practice, as did thousands of others.

I don't recognise the repression you speak of in my lived experience of communism.

antisemitism, communism 

@emacsen it seems to me that you're talking about *Soviet* repression of Jews, not _communist_ repression. The soviets/Russians were not the only communists, and it is nonsense to ascribe their malignancy to those of us who were both Jewish *and* communists.

antisemitism, communism 

@dgold

The Kibbuzim were (and I am purposefully using the past tense here), a wonderful idea that I think would have been amazing had they worked long term.

But... they didn't. As I understand it, not only are more closed now, most of the remaining ones are basically just big corps.

Am I wrong? (genuine question!)

But also you didn't live under Communism. Israel has never been a Communist country, with a single party system and taking private property.

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antisemitism, communism 

@dgold

Now, if we say "it's just Soviet" we ignore a number of realities of the Jewish experience.

Firstly, we need not go back to far to look at communist repression of Jews. We need only look at China's repression of their tiny Jewish population in 2018. They're not Soviets.

But more generally, while I'm more Socialist than most, Communism poses a direct threat to Jews because no matter what governmental system, Jews will always eventually be attacked.

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antisemitism, communism 

@dgold

And thus we must have the means to escape. A backup plan. This is how I grew up, as a 3G. I'm clearly younger than you, but neither of us is young. :)

I see money as a means of defense, and if not allowed to accumulate it, we can't defend ourselves.

You may think this is a diasporatic mindset. You'd be right, but I'd feel this way even if I made aliyah .

Also not sure why I started at 2, but there we go :)

/end

antisemitism, communism 

@emacsen

Come now, that's nonsense.

Fist of all, China is _not_ a "communist state" (as if such a thing were even possible) its a devolved capitalist autarky, dressed up as erstatz communism. Their repression of Hews is for the same reason as always: a minority, there for the plucking.

"Communism poses a direct threat to Jews" -- please, elucidate on how it specifically does so in a way that "Socialism" does not?

antisemitism, communism 

@dgold

Not allowing for the accumulation of wealth through nationalization makes escape harder- and escape is essential.

It's that simple.

Socialism as practiced in Europe is a dance between companies and governments- a push/pull that often (though not always or often enough), provides better outcomes for the people than if left to unfettered markets.

Communism is pure centralized control and ownership.

antisemitism, communism 

@emacsen

You're not describing Communism - you're describing "Sovietism" - a system created by Stalin to embed the power of his fraction, nothing else.

You're also very ill-informed on European socialism, which is a broad and contradictory collection of viewpoints, only some of which are corporatist and statist.

antisemitism, communism 

@dgold

I'm European born to a European family. It's imperfect AF, especially now, but many of the people who talk about how awful capitalism is are talking about the US.

I'd argue Israel is more Socialist than the US. Maybe you think it's not enough... That's fair.

I don't think we'll agree but we can agree to keep on disagreeing and arguing- which is a beautiful Jewish tradition. :) <3

antisemitism, communism 

@emacsen

Israel today is not socialist. Its not even european social democratic. its a vicious apartheid state wedded to religious extremists, which has led to a complete capture by fascists. As a literal refugee from there, granted permission to remain on the basis of my personal repression, I think I'm qualified to comment.

I'm going to enjoy my weekend and start drinking now, so I'll not comment further, as I don't think it would be fair to this enjoyable "argument"

antisemitism, communism 

@dgold

Also, I've heard people argue about what is "real communism" too much- people tell me Russia wasn't real communism, Cuba isn't real communism, China isn't real communism.

*shrug*

As for being a minority- yeah... That's life in the diaspora :)

antisemitism, communism 

@dgold

I held onto this because I didn't know if I wanted to go down this road, but I think I should...

I talked to my (Israeli) wife about this topic, and she told me story after story about the Kibbibutzim, their Ashkenazi racism, their abuse of members, stories of how people were kept from their property, in one case someone had to escape with only the clothes on their back because "the community" owned everything.

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antisemitism, communism 

@dgold

The image of a communist utopia that the Kibbutzim projected was just that, an image, an illusion- designed to cover up racial superiority, abuse and who-knows-what else.

This is always what happens when one group decides it can steal from its membership, when it decides that the good of the "group" outweigh the rights of the individual, controlled by an elitist leadership, whether that's the Soviets or the leaders of a Kibbutz, or a cult leader.

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antisemitism, communism 

@dgold

These messages aren't for you @dgold- they're for anyone who might think, just for a moment, that you might be right.

You aren't.

And your screed about Israel- with no basis in reality, shows it. I'm no apologist for bigotry, but when we throw around words with big implications that can harm millions of people- I get serious.

Don't like a policy- work to change it. There's a lot about Israel that need changing, but you're spouting hateful nonsense.

/end

antisemitism, communism 

@emacsen hold on just a cotton picking moment.

Nowhere did I say that the kibbutzim were some sort of ideal utopia that we all should aspire to. I used the kibbutzim as a method of demonstrating that communist ideals are not alien to Jews, that the two are not exclusive.

The kibbutzim were exclusionary, they were a method of colonialism, there’s entire literatures on what it did to the kids. Those features were, primarily, the result of who the people building them were - victims of the Shoah - and what they were - damaged.

The actualité of kibbutzim is tangential to the question of communism and Jewish involvement in it. It’s notable that, rather than continue to further attack communism, instead you’ve chosen to attack me.

antisemitism, communism 

@emacsen also my screed about Israel?

I get that your spouse is Israeli born, that’s understood, but what element of my statement is incorrect? It’s a big thing to accuse someone of being hateful, then slap your hands and walk away.

antisemitism, communism 

@emacsen @dgold This sort of anticommunism is lazy and ahistorical.

re: antisemitism, communism 

@emacsen @dgold

Not to pile on too much, but Jewish contributions to communism are rich and significant. From the work of the Bund, to leaders like Marx and Trotsky.

That Jews experienced repression under the Soviet system should not erase that. The inspiration orgs like the Bund gives to Jewish leftists today should not be minimised.

antisemitism, communism 

@emacsen

We owned property in common. We shared what we had with our fellows. We kids slept in a common dorm, not with our parents. We sang the Internationale, Bella Ciao, Hijos la Pueblo...

The externalities of the commune were limited, at best, apart from when communists from other countries came to visit, and work in the fields.

re: antisemitism, communism 

@emacsen To me it is not a binary choice. You don't have to choose between capitalism and communism.

re: antisemitism, communism 

@Ahuka

I agree. And you don't have to choose between community or communality (ala coops or kibbutzim) and government enforced ownership.

antisemitism, communism 

Without the Soviet Union and Stalin there would not be an Israeli state.
The USSR was the first country to legally recognize Israel and supported it with weapons in 1948.
Antisemitism was repressed by the state under Lenin and early Stalin (eventhough he made a complete U-turn later) in the USSR.

re: antisemitism, communism 

@kr0n0tu @emacsen The two events were not unconnected. Stalin of course hated the Jews but wasn’t in a position to start purging them as a class until “Carrying the first Israeli-issued passport, [Golda] Meir was appointed Israel’s minister plenipotentiary to the Soviet Union, with her term beginning on September 2, 1948, and ending in March 1949.”

During this visit enough Jews in Soviet Union demonstrated their primary allegiance wasn’t to the USSR and that was the opening he needed. Plus after his death it was run by Slavs who’d had quite enough of being murdered by Jews.

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